Sweet (Idaho)
Things are so bad with family justice that one has to underscore when the worst is avoided. In Jesus Ramirez’case and his three-year old daughter, Maria, one was heading towards a fiasco à la Bail Romero in Missouri: an immigrant parent being deprived for ever of his parental rights.
Close call. Without the Idaho Supreme Court overturning the ruling of the Idaho Department of Human and Health Services, Jesus Ramirez would never have seen his daughter. Ramirez is a Mexican undocumented worker, who married an American citizen in Idaho in 2007. A year after, he is expelled and returned to Mexico, soon joined by his wife. Maria is conceived in Mexico but born in Idaho, where Ramirez’ wife returns in 2008. As she is accused of child’s neglect, Maria is put in a foster home. Ramirez, who has tried to come back to the country to reunite with Maria, is accused of having abandoned her, not to have the financial needs to support her, and is given the thorny “best interest of the child stuff”: Maria will live in the beautiful country of ours.
In Ramirez’ case, the Idaho Supreme Court has asserted that undocumented parents also have parental rights. That may help parental rights in general.
Subject: Mitt Rommnys connection to multi generational global religion based systematic parental alienation and the LDS church
Mitt Rommney,s Great Great Grandfather was a Kidnapper Parental Alienator Parley P. Pratt had converted and married ["seduced?"] as his tenth wife Eleanor McLean, the legal wife of Hector McLean. Pratt brought Eleanor to Utah and later returned to Arkansas to kidnap Hector’s and her children of which Hector had legal custody. Hector McLean overtook the escaping Parley P. Pratt and killed him Numerically it was PPP’s 12th wife, but when I once fact-checked a writer who said Eleanor was only #9, a sanctimonious apologist said the guy was “also” telling the truth because three of Pratt’s wives left him… The contact also claimed Eleanor was better off with Pratt because of stories of McLean being an alcoholic and beating her… I have since acquired a copy of an “original source” volume by another Mormon who became disaffected but spoke highly of McClean’s character. Okay, nobody can defend cold-blooded murder, but then it was McLean’s children involved in the kidnapping. The children were living in New Orleans at the time; they’d been placed with Eleanor’s parents. Pratt was actually murdered in “Indian Territory” (Present-day Oklahoma) near the Arkansas border. An Arkansas judge had released him, and McLean followed him out of town and killed him. Collusion in high places. Apostle Erastus Snow reported to Brigham Young (in code language) that Pratt had narrowly escaped from McLean in St. Louis: “The Hare [Parley] however escaped narrowly but silently by a way they knew not and the blood hounds have lost every scent of his trail. The Bird [Eleanor] with her Young [her children] had flown over the Gulf and her beak headed towards the high places of the Mountains.”
Will Bagley, wrote the story of Pratt’s murder in “Blood of the Prophets,” and many historians believe vengeance for PPP’s murder was a factor in Brigham Young ordering the “Mountain Meadows Massacre.” Certainly it relieved Young of the burden of having a hysterical Eleanor McLean wanting “justice” for her murdered husband.
The Mountain Meadow’s Massacre was a dark chapter in Mormon history. More than 120 pioneers, families traveling from Arkansas to California in 1857, were attacked and slaughtered by Mormons at Mountain Meadows, a grassy oasis in southern Utah. Most of the victims, which included infants in their mothers’ arms, were executed after the travelers surrendered their weapons. Mormonism has covered up the truth about the MMM.At Mountain Meadows, local settlers and Southern Paiute warriors waylaid the Fancher party, a wagon train bound from Arkansas to California. Pinned down in a circle of wagons in a remote corner of southwestern Utah, some forty men, thirty women, and seventy children fought for their lives for five days before surrendering under a promise of safe conduct. As the Mormon militia and their Indian allies escorted the emigrants away from their wagons, they killed all of them except seventeen children below the age of seven.The seventeen surviving children were “parceled” out among LDS families in Southern Utah. They were later retrieved–some essentially at gunpoint–by Jacob Forney, an Indian Superintendant, and James Lynch (who married one of the surviving victims some thirty years later). They were returned to their relatives in Arkansas and all of them lived essentially unremarkable lives afterwards, the last dying in the 1930′s. There were rumors of an “18th Survivor” who was raised among the Mormons, but there’s no surviving contemporary evidence, only folklore. Testimonies of Present day Ex-Mormons Parental Alienation
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
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Posted by: CastawayDad ( )
Date: August 28, 2012 03:23PM
Parental Alienation
Has anyone experienced systematic parental alienation, the baptizing of your children against your will or the sealing of your children to another parent against your will in the temple of the morman church?
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Posted by: upsidedown ( )
Date: August 28, 2012 03:51PM
Re: Parental Alienation
Just heard a talk by grown man about his mother and how she left his father and married a temple worthy male who then used the priesthood in their home. He went on to describe how his step dad was then “sealed in the temple” to the mother and the chidren because their real dad wasn’t worthy.
I was ready to stand up and announce my feelings as a rebuttal but didn’t want to get escorted out of the church that sunday.
It made me sick because it was all about how wonderful it was from a childs point of view. Problem was that the guy was brainwashed twice…once by the church and the second time by his mother.
Total parental alienation. There are lots of good support groups and online pages about the topic.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2012 03:51PM by upsidedown.
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Posted by: WinksWinks ( )
Date: August 28, 2012 06:08PM
Re: Parental Alienation
My mother turned me against my father and it took me more than two decades to realize it.
She continues to gossip the most nasty things about me to the extended family.
But there was no baptism or sealings against anyone’s will… Unless you count my will, and I’ve resigned, therefore all my “blessings” have been retracted, or something.
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Posted by: janebond462 ( )
Date: August 28, 2012 06:12PM
Re: Parental Alienation
Knotheadusc has some choice observations on Parental Alienation as practiced by her DH’s ex-wife.
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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 09:07AM
Re: Parental Alienation
Yes, my husband’s ex wife launched a successful parental alienation campaign against him and his two daughters. However, the girls were already sealed to him when my husband and his ex wife divorced. Incidentally, my husband was also sealed to his former stepson, who had adopted my husband’s name as a child and was alienated from his father. He has since reclaimed his original name and now calls his long lost bio father “dad”… same guy who walked away from him at age six and never paid child support beyond that age.
The ex did not allow my husband to baptize his older daughter, claiming that he was unworthy because he was a “violent porn addict” and she didn’t agree with how the bishop disciplined him. For the record, I’ve been married to my husband for almost ten years and I have never seen any proclivities toward violence whatsoever. By the time his younger daughter got baptized, they were divorced and living on opposite sides of the country.
The ex’s current husband (#3) is now “dad” to them, even though he wasn’t even a legal adult when they were born and never financially supported them. They recently adopted his last name and, for all we know, were legally adopted by him. My husband’s daughters are now young adults, so this would be legal. The ex tried to get them adopted before they were legal, but we put a stop to that. My husband has not seen his daughters since 2004. The last communication he got from them was in 2006, when they sent him letters demanding that he let their stepfather adopt them. They were 15 and 12 at the time. Those letters broke my husband’s heart.
One of the main reasons I hate Mormonism is because of the way it’s been used to separate my husband from his kids. However, I also know that my husband’s ex wife would have alienated them regardless. Mormonism was just an effective tool.
Castaway Dad, you are right. It’s the ultimate hate crime. I hurt every day for my husband and I barely even know his kids… and at this point, though I know they are victims, I don’t even want to know them. I can’t wrap my head around the way they have just rejected their father and his side of the family. Logically, I know they were brainwashed by a sick woman, but emotionally, I am still really angry with them and don’t want them around. And I also fear that they are just as screwed up as their mother is and will one day try to use grandchildren to manipulate other people.
I would encourage you to fight for your rights with a good non-Mormon lawyer. I would also encourage you to visitwww.shrink4men.com. You will find useful information about parental alienation there. Also, if you haven’t already done so, I would recommend reading “Divorce Poison” by Dr. Richard Warshak.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2012 09:31AM by knotheadusc.
for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and frie
http://www.shrink4men.com
for men who are recovering from relationships with abusive women and the non-abusive family and friends who love them
Yesterday at 3:53pm · Like · 1
Re: Parental Alienation
Get yourself a good, non-mormon lawyer.
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Posted by: Cristina ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 02:24AM
I’m confused by some of this…
What do you mean sealing in the temple to a step parent? My understanding is that sealings to step parents can only be done if there has been a legal adoption. Even two parent families who adopt children have to wait for the final decree of adoption before they can be sealed.
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Posted by: whatnow2012 ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 08:39AM
Re: Parental Alienation
Unfortunately this is one of the tragic consequences of the teachings of the mormons. These “family oriented” people will completely ignore their own blood because they are “sinning”. I know this because I didn’t really talk to my father for years after my parents divorced and he left the church. I didn’t prevent him from seeing my children, and I didn’t avoid him, but I also didn’t make any effort to talk to him or be close. I was angry b/c he broke our “eternal family”.
Now that I realize the truth I am horrified with my actions. I have apologized to him and I look forward to getting to know my dad again.
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Posted by: Outcast ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 10:19AM
Re: Parental Alienation
You need to find a lawyer who has experience in this area.
Parental Alienation is a common tactic ex-wives employ against ex-husbands.
Severe Parental Alienation, if proven to be causing damage, is grounds for change of custody. Could be very difficult and expensive to prove and win. But it’s possible.
The main question is, how is your relationship with your child? If your relationship is good and you are sticking with the visitation schedule, there’s no parental alienation…just an obnoxious ex.
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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 11:10AM
The Church Handbook
of Instructions has pretty specific language about not baptizing without permission and some things about sealing too. Do you need quotes?
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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 11:27AM
Re: The Church Handbook
The church may have language about not baptizing, but my husband was sealed to his ex stepson, whom he never legally adopted. Somehow, his ex wife managed to get the kid’s name changed from his birth father’s name to my husband’s name. I don’t know how it happened, only that it did… and then fifteen years later, the young man changed it back to what it was originally. The action to change his name required a court appearance and fees.
My husband has told me that his ex wife had some paper from the Department of State that listed my husband as the kid’s dad, even though legally he never was. I think she got it when she and my husband were in Germany with the military. Somehow, that was accepted as proof of my husband’s paternity, even though the boy had a dad. Apparently, the church accepted it as proof, too.
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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 11:21AM
Re: Parental Alienation
My TBM ex-wife divorced me. She systematically told the kids how horrible and monstrous I was and threw all kinds of roadblocks in the way of my visitation etc.
Gradually as my kids grew older they began to realize that Dad was an OK guy after all and that Mom was nuts.
All of them were raised by her as TBMs. All of them are now totally out of the Church.
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Posted by: Whiskey_Tango ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 11:37AM
I am going through it myself….
I filed for divorce several months ago. We have not yet set temporary child custody visitation rules. My wife is already turning my children against me. They disappear when I come to visit. My adult daughter told me that my boys are taken out of town when I come to visit. My oldest son won’t see or talk to me and my youngest is terrified that he will never see me again.
I am just learning about Parental Alienation and I am worried about my boys. Good luck and keep us informed. I appreciate any information on others experiences.
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Posted by: upsidedown ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 11:41AM
Re: Parental Alienation
baura: Thank you for sharing that. It’s nice to be able to have hope that things work out well on occasion.
Hang in there if you are being alienated by an ex-spouse. Sometimes you have to just try topick up the pieces and see if your kids will want to have a relaionship in the future. It sucks when a big part of your identity and life is taken from you but things can get better someday.
To help ease the pain I sometimes try to think about how a similar thing could be happening if I were still married to my ex. She could still make my children hate others and myself for imaginary reasons. Teachers, coaches, other moms, people at church….all can be targets of hate and a sick person can make children hate anyone they choose. Children are emotionally dependent on a parent so they are easily manipulated. If they claim their independence someday (and they will) then they will really be disgusted with their mothers behavior.
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Posted by: dogzilla ( )
Date: August 29, 2012 02:03PM
Re: Parental Alienation
From the child’s perspective:
My dad and stepmom attempted parental alienation by constantly reminding my sister and I that our mom is (was) a useless drug addict and we were SOOOOO much better off living with them than with her. Trouble was, they started that way too late — we were already teenagers by then. It was obvious to us that they were simply trash talking and trying to convince us that we should be happy living in mormonville with the god squad rather than living with our loving mom who was awesomeness personified.
Okay, my mom wasn’t so perfect either (and there were very good reasons we went to live with dad instead of staying with her), but it took me another 20 years to de-heroify her. All my dad and stepmom did was manage to make themselves look like sour-grapes, resentful, mean-spirited douchebags. We were old enough to realize that it’s poor form and quite tacky to try to turn kids against one of their parents and they were too brainwashed to realize that what they were doing — trying to point out the positives — was really just manipulative and a cheap, ham-handed attempt to win us over. They just looked like jerks to us, which prevented us both from noticing that, actually, our mom was a bit of a narcissist as well.
Yesterday at 4:12pm · Like
Anonymous Poster Quietly going along with this tells a child:
Let’s say your kiddie knows you don’t attend or support the mormon church but you decide to let that church have its way with the child.
1. That you don’t care if he/she joins a cult.
2. That you have other priorities in your life more important than protecting them.
3. That you care more about protecting yourself from mormonism than the child.
I wouldn’t put this young person in the middle of a fight, but it’s okay if he/she finds out you cared enough to put out some effort to back up your beliefs and their safety.
I think anyone is making a mistake to do nothing to protect a child from mormon racism, sexism and homophobia and a cult which aggressively indoctrinates kids to believe that non-belielvers are bad and that *they* are bad for acting their age and expressing their opinions.
Once a child is baptized, they’re in the system and are as likely as not to be tracked and hounded by a cult for the rest of their lives.
Yesterday at 4:40pm · Like
l Anonymous Poster i’ve just spent the last few hours reading online the many different stories and situations that many of you have been through. First let me start of with a little bit about myself… I’m 30 years old and have been out of the mormon church now for 7 years. I was born and raised in the mormon religion. From the time i can remember i was taught to breath, eat, and sleep mormonism. I come from a family of 9 children… 8 of which are still very active mormons. If you do the math…that leaves me…the “black sheep” of the family… my parents are also very active mormons…. i was married to my first husband at the age of 18, had my first child at 19, second at 21, which we started raising in the mormon religion. I was also married in the temple three years after we were married “civilly” …one year after my temple marriage i quit going to church…one year later i was divorced…i have primary custody of both my children… 8yr old boy and 10 yr old girl…. my children go to there fathers for the summer ( him still half in the church) where they are pressured to be baptized at age 8… my daughter was 8 when she got baptized…with out my consent…i was given a call by my daughter the week before her baptized letting me know she was getting baptized and if i would go…. i was furious but didn’t think i could tell them no…and that they wouldn’t be able to do it with out my permission. well two years later…my son is now 8 and it is summer time and they are yet again with my ex….and guess what i received today……a call saying that the missionaries were giving him lessons…i am again furious…but this time spoke to my ex and let him know that i do not give consent….it seems to me that there are so many cases of the exs or other people baptizing kids without consent. Isn’t there something we can all do as a group to make this stop, and put pressure on the mormon church to not allow this to happen or there will be legal issues.. there are so many of us that disapprove of the LDS way yet we seem to be with out a voice. there is power in numbers which is why the church is so strong… if we can ban together then maybe we can have a voice…. is there anybody that will join me in this fight against organized religion that is forced upon our children with out our consent.
i would like to hear others opinions and ideas about what we can do… i am dedicated to giving a voice to non mormons that want to make a change… i know what it’s like to feel like an outcast by your family and community… not believing like them does not make you a bad person… lets come together and make a difference for the generations to come.
thank you